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Post by saddlerocker on Oct 22, 2010 17:43:13 GMT -5
So far it seems only vets is against it, you realize that dont you. And who are the fleets that want it? elnobles has expressed his opinion. but thats it.
Obvously vets would vote for BB4 if it was only fleet leaders correct?
Well that is 100% NOT a representation of what people want overall.
All players opinions in a fleet cannot be condensed into ONE vote for that entire fleet.
As doc said I can see who is voting.
I dont play fleet league, so Im not pushing one way or another. I wanted to stay totally out of this thread, but I think that the reasons being stated for not chaging are irrelevant/wrong all togeather. Sayingn BB5 are not balanced is rediculous, because BB4 arent balanced either.
lordsaxon was good in a vangaurd?? well people like aingeal and masc are good in H44s. point irrelevant. Vangaurd was the least used BB4 in previous fleet leauges correct? that was my point. Just like the H44 or Alsace may be the least used if it were BB5, so what.
If it was a totally perfect world where fleets could use the very best ship with the best player in it at all times, then yes SY and L2 would always be used. But we dont live in a perfect world. Most fleets struggle to get enough players online to fill the spots each week. Players will use the ships they are best in. you will see every BB5 used every week gaurenteed.
I am watching who is voting so dont worry about that. I will also copy/paste everyone who voted in the end(not what they voted for). I was hoping to get a better turn out, and only change it if it was overwhelming one way. So if we dont get more votes, then it will stay as it is.
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Post by elnoble on Oct 22, 2010 18:36:00 GMT -5
I am sure, sooner or later (and I hope sooner as I trust on the vision of the player base of this server), the BB4 setup would be part of the past, as the BB3 setup become long time ago.
Why?, because logic seems to show that way.
Currently, the French nation released by SD on the last few months, gave us some interesting hints:
With the BB6: They didn't release yet the BB6, because they are working very hard on it, to please the community and to prevent a huge drama if the ship is not well balanced or if it doesn't fulfill the players expectations.
With the BB5: they did a hard work, to finally release a good and balanced ship that could satisfy the community expectations. They tried their best, because they knew that an unbalanced ship would end on a huge drama on the forums, on the same way you can still see posts of complains about the H44.
With the BB4: they placed less effort on it, because its not as important as the BB6 or BB5. That ended on a ship that is crap, but they knew the drama would not be huge, because people would forget it, as they get their BB5s. And if the BB5s are ok, everyone would be happy.
Moral of the story: when Russia will be released on a few more weeks, expect to see the best and finest work on the BB6, a bit less on the BB5s, and whatever is left for the BB4.
I am sure, that with the addition of the Russians and the Italians, the panorama would be a huge group of unbalanced BB4s, and a well balanced group of BB5s. As to been honest, I doubt SD is thinking on placing their best effort on the BB4s, only because of our leagues.
And Brazen, about your comment of "if its not broken, why fix it?", the answer is because people gets bored of the same stuff again and again.
To illustrate with an example: Why the Volkswagen company, ended the production of the Volkswagen Beetle if it was such a great design, and it was not broken, and didn't need any fix?, because after 65 years of production, people was bored to hell to have to drive it again. The demand of the vehicle dropped (no matter it was not broken), to a point that the company finally understood that people wanted fresh new designs, and not the same thing again and again.
If you want 20 more matches/weeks on the same Graff Zeppelin of the last years, you must have to be obsessed with it. But many people here, are not obsessed with them, and they want a fresh new change.
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Post by brazen on Oct 22, 2010 18:39:30 GMT -5
So far it is only vets that is against it, you realize that dont you. Obvously vets would vote for BB4 if it was only fleet leaders correct? Well that is 100% NOT a representation of what people want overall. All players opinions in a fleet cannot be condensed into ONE vote for that entire fleet. As doc said I can see who is voting. Im not pushing one way or another, I just think that the reasons being stated for not chaging are irrelevant/wrong all togeather. Sayingn BB5 are not balanced is rediculous, because BB4 arent balanced either. lordsaxon was good in a vangaurd?? well people like aingeal and masc are good in H44s. point irrelevant. Vangaurd was the least used BB4 in previous fleet leauges correct? that was my point. Just like the H44 or Alsace may be the least used if it were BB5, so what. If it was a totally perfect world where fleets could use the very best ship with the best player in it at all times, then yes SY and L2 would always be used. But we dont live in a perfect world. Most fleets struggle to get enough players online to fill the spots each week. Players will use the ships they are best in. you will see every BB5 used every week gaurenteed. I am watching who is voting so dont worry about that. I was hoping to get a better turn out, and only change it if it was overwhelming one way. I would vote for BB4/CV4 only becasue they offer the best balance of all BB/CV classes, bringing real skill into the equasion instead of charging in with 4 L2s and steamrollering the opposition. Arizona is the benchmark, they have more high level/skilled/Long serving players that the rest of the servers put together but they still choose to use the most competitive tier of BBs for all of their FL completions. I applaud the mods for creating more events than almost any other server, but lets not mess with a well proven, entertaining and above all fair concept. Of course Vets don't represent 100% of what the Bismarck community thinks, you would have to be an idiot to think that we do, but we do represent the views of the majority of our fleet members. If you read my post or even understand the forum you are posting on you will know that each fleet will have 3 votes, more than enough to gain consensus. If BB5s are voted for then Vets will still take part and hopefully maintain the standards we have set for our fleet in the past. There are many fine H44 players on the server Saddle, who will probably spend most of the tournament using an L2 or a SY on someone else's account because your not going to see many other battleships if we go to a BB5 based FL. You misunderstand my point around the vanguard completely, I agree it was the least used BB4 last season, however it was still very competitive when used and as capable as the rest of the BB4s, if it is inferior in any way (and i think it isn't) then it's at such a small disadvantage that it almost means nothing. BB5s will not be balanced until the H44 gets a shell weight/damage buff, this is a widely held concept across almost all of the NF community and I fail to see why you cannot comprehend this. MN ships will not come into the equasion in 90% of FL games because not fleet in it's right mind will use a BB that carries too little ammo to last for a full match. As for the not pushing the concept, every time we argue against the idea or your implementation of the poll you come back quite aggressively defending the idea, try putting up the poll next time and let the people who will play it argue it out. Your first sentence in the above quote contradicts it's self, in essence it says "I'm not pushing for one thing or another, but your views are wrong" Mods are supposed to act in an impartial way which frankly Mugsys and your posts in this thread are not, in fact your response to Outcasts post and my post are downright rude. I will treat you and your answers with respect when you have the good grace to treat others with respect.
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Post by saddlerocker on Oct 22, 2010 18:50:44 GMT -5
I agree i have not been professional in this thread. And I apologize The reason I am so argumentitive is because I really cannot agree with you on 90% of what is being said. Im not goin to explain my point again as it has been ranted here somwhere already.
Ill leave the poll and hope more people vote.
Perhaps im a mental midget.
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Post by brazen on Oct 22, 2010 18:52:40 GMT -5
I am sure, sooner or later (and I hope sooner as I trust on the vision of the player base of this server), the BB4 setup would be part of the past, as the BB3 setup become long time ago. Why?, because logic seems to show that way. Currently, the French nation released by SD on the last few months, gave us some interesting hints: With the BB6: They didn't release yet the BB6, because they are working very hard on it, to please the community and to prevent a huge drama if the ship is not well balanced or if it doesn't fulfill the players expectations. With the BB5: they did a hard work, to finally release a good and balanced ship that could satisfy the community expectations. They tried their best, because they knew that an unbalanced ship would end on a huge drama on the forums, on the same way you can still see posts of complains about the H44. With the BB4: they placed less effort on it, because its not as important as the BB6 or BB5. That ended on a ship that is crap, but they knew the drama would not be huge, because people would forget it, as they get their BB5s. And if the BB5s are ok, everyone would be happy. Moral of the story: when Russia will be released on a few more weeks, expect to see the best and finest work on the BB6, a bit less on the BB5s, and whatever is left for the BB4. I am sure, that with the addition of the Russians and the Italians, the panorama would be a huge group of unbalanced BB4s, and a well balanced group of BB5s. As to been honest, I doubt SD is thinking on placing their best effort on the BB4s, only because of our leagues. And Brazen, about your comment of "if its not broken, why fix it?", the answer is because people gets bored of the same stuff again and again. To illustrate with an example: Why the Volkswagen company, ended the production of the Volkswagen Beetle if it was such a great design, and it was not broken, and didn't need any fix?, because after 65 years of production, people was bored to hell to have to drive it again. The demand of the vehicle dropped (no matter it was not broken), to a point that the company finally understood that people wanted fresh new designs, and not the same thing again and again. If you want 20 more matches/weeks on the same Graff Zeppelin of the last years, you must have to be obsessed with it. But many people here, are not obsessed with them, and they want a fresh new change. The last ONF patch did not touch the BB5s at all becasue there were bigger issues with BB5 balance, the main one was fixing the ranges on the 103 and 110 guns without screwing up the BB6s, either making the BB6 range too long Vs lower tiers and making the BB6 untouchable or making it too close range wise to the level 110 guns and too easy to kill, ONF3 were working on BB5 balance when the rug was pulled buy TNF. Elnoble you contradict your self, on one hand saying we must change becasue no one plays a BB4/CV4 any more then telling me that playing the same BB4/CV4 again and again is boring, make your mind up which is it? Your car analogy is broken becasue demand has not dropped in fact it's going back up, your beetle is now acknowleged as a classic and you use it once a weekend, while you drive round in your New and Shiny but very boring golf during the week. Also beetles were always a bag of shit, Minis FTW.
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Post by brazen on Oct 22, 2010 18:56:56 GMT -5
Perhaps im a mental midget. We are arguing over a 6 year old dodgy 2D game like it's life and death, I think the mental midget thing could be applied to quite a few of us in this thread ;D
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Post by docryan13 on Oct 22, 2010 19:05:00 GMT -5
We are arguing over a 6 year old dodgy 2D game like it's life and death, I think the mental midget thing could be applied to quite a few of us in this thread ;D *Cough*Mugsybugsy*Cough* Heyyy...who said that?!?!?!?
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Post by elnoble on Oct 22, 2010 20:16:30 GMT -5
### "The last ONF patch did not touch the BB5s .... When the rug was pulled buy TNF."
No need to tell me that, I saw it with my own eyes.
### "Elnoble you contradict your self, on one hand saying we must change because no one plays a BB4/CV4 any more then telling me that playing the same BB4/CV4 again and again is boring, make your mind up which is it?"
I don't contradict myself, I'm fine lucid. Maybe the only thing I was responsible for, was that I didn't clarified some evident stuff even more, as I thought was clearly enough.
Here is what you criticize me, on a more clear way:
When you say I said: "we must change because no one plays a BB4/CV4 any more", I was referring to the 98% type of game everyone plays during the week (GB2). And if you want proves, take a look from here to Sunday on your fleet and see who's playing BB4. You will notice that everyone would be playing on BB5s, or BB6s, as that's what you can see every weekend on Vets fleet players. You only need to open your eyes and see, and you will realize I am right.
When you say I said: "playing the same BB4/CV4 again and again is boring", everyone can understand I am making a reference to what we have been playing here the last 3 years on fleet leagues (one of the most talked things during this post).
So, there's no problem of contradiction on any place. I suggest, you and Outcast, to focus more on what they are reading, as when a word like "change" is used on diferent things (like on a paragraph on where someone says an opinion, and then on a summary of a certain situation), doesn't mean they entwine or that you are contradicted, or that you don't have things clear on your mind. So, if tomorrow you see the word "model" on a warship post on the Off Topic section on the NF site, and then you read the word "model" on Sport Illustrated, don't think they are entwine. So sorry, but I was not contradicting myself, by using the same word "change" on different posts.
### "Your car analogy is broken because demand has not dropped in fact it's going back up, your beetle is now acknowledge as a classic and you use it once a weekend, while you drive round in your New and Shiny but very boring golf during the week."
Sorry, but you are wrong again. Volkswagen announced the end of production in June 2003, citing decreasing demand. The last car was delivered to the company's museum in Wolfsburg, Germany in 2003.
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Post by brazen on Oct 23, 2010 5:13:36 GMT -5
OK this is my last post on the matter, I'm sure everyone is bored by now. So your point is that we must combat the FL getting boring using BB4/CV4s, which by your admission very few people play, by using the ships people have to grind day in day out in GB. So in essence your telling me that it is more entertaining to use the ship you have to play for 17 very long levels, that going back to use a well balanced BB tier that is always entertaining to use. Another way of looking at it is that people have played football for centuries, it must be boring now so to freshen things up we are going to make La Liga use a tennis ball for the coming season, theres no real reason for that, but we were worried that Ronaldo might be a bit bored with a big ball........... FL with it's current format works, the rules are good and well tested. The ships are evenly matched and require skill to get the best out of them. I'm not campaigning to keep the satus Quo just because i don't like change, I have a immovable belief that any move away from the BB4s will just increase the gulf between the smaller fleets and the more successful fleets, the games we had against GoD last season were superb very close, very tactical and keenly contested some thing I believe will be lost if we change to BB/CV Tier that is not fully balanced. Try reading about classic Beetle scene across the UK and most of the world, just because VW no longer makes them does not mean there is no demand for beetles or parts across the world, in fact the cost of used beetles(and Minis) has risen dramatically since they both stopped production, thats my analogy the beetle is still used, even after people have moved to something newer for their daily driver because it's a well balanced design that people still love to use it's just that it takes a little more effort and skill to look after and use well than the new car you drive during the week
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Post by nfcs2007 on Oct 23, 2010 5:28:21 GMT -5
Yes do not change the ship limit , the ship limit should be stick with what it is now , since BB 5 and above are not correctly balance.
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Post by elnoble on Oct 23, 2010 17:12:11 GMT -5
Brazen, don't worry, I will not place any more time on showing the inaccuracy of your statements. ------- o -------
About the democratic Poll, Saddlerocker placed, to see the will of the people who play around here. I hope, they consider the will of the mayority, and not the pressing force of the minority. USA and other countries with a long tradition on democracy, have shown us all, that democracy is the best way to ensure the liberty of the people.
So I hope, no matter what option wins, that option as an expression of the mayority, could be respected. If not, the feeling that the Vets fleet forced us all, to play the way they wanted, to satisfied their interests, would be in the air forever.
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Post by outcast5 on Oct 23, 2010 18:01:24 GMT -5
If not, the feeling that the Vets fleet forced us all, to play the way they wanted, to satisfied their interests, would be in the air forever. lol.
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Post by docryan13 on Oct 23, 2010 19:04:30 GMT -5
For the upcoming season, Season 5 (Starting November 14, 2010), SHIP LIMITS WILL REMAIN THE SAME AS THEY ARE NOW, BB4/CV4.
I will leave this poll up so that we can debate about it for Season 6. Also, please talk about this in a mature manner. I know the majority of fleet leaders are well above the age of 20 so there is no reason to argue like 14 year olds. Thanks guys.
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Post by nfcs2007 on Oct 23, 2010 20:32:33 GMT -5
'So I hope, no matter what option wins, that option as an expression of the mayority, could be respected. If not, the feeling that the Vets fleet forced us all, to play the way they wanted, to satisfied their interests, would be in the air forever. '
Its this really needed?
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Post by elnoble on Oct 24, 2010 11:10:34 GMT -5
Its brave to recognize mistakes, and I think it enhance and exalt people rather than the opposite. In order with that, I have to recognize, that on my last post I did wrong at placing that last comment about the Vets fleet. On Vet's fleet you can find a nice group of good people that at the same time they are gentlemen, so it was not fair to include them all on a discussion I was having with brazen and Outcast. I recognize it was wrong, and I want to offer my deepest and sincere apologies to all of them.
Also, this is a great and peaceful forum, so my apologizes to all, if we created a tense moment here. From my part it will not happen again.
My best wishes to everyone, regards,
Elnoble
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